The cheek of some people...

[IBBoard]

Yeah, that was the one unusual thing I remember at the time. Granted, he did do some of his own work by making some of the AI work together where it wouldn't normally, but he was still redistributing without permission.

Like I said before - at least the Net has matured from the year 2000 when I started my first website and anybody with a personal website would steal just about any amusing article or image they found.

[DanTay25]

Oh dear... then let it be said here aand now that the quote in my signature was taken from Life in a Big Country by Bill Bryson. But a website would get pretty messy if there were "Found on http://www.xxxxxxxxxx.com" labels everywhere...

But re-distributing your skin without permission was very cheeky , as was deleting the legal stuff . I mean, if you wanted your stuff on FileFront you would have done it yourself...

[IBBoard]

Exactly, and I purposefully removed all of my stuff from FileFront when Skins@HWT moved from their temporary (few months) initial home on FileFront to my own hosting.

[Ravage777]

So how does it work if i want to alter somebodys mod a little bit and just give it away free like they do?
Isnt the altering like we do with the game anyways?
Is it stealing by giving it for free to everybody if they are allready giving it away free?
How do you steal free?
I could understand if money was involved but credit for the work they did to it in the credits on the readme is what is deserved if its free right?
Or should i try to pay the guy?
I mean for reals if he makes a mod and gives it to the world for free and i take it and say eliminate his halving of starting stats and then give it to the world for free with all the credit except for that change in the readme am i doing anything wrong?
If im going to change it for myself which is obviously why its there for free is so i can use for myself then whats the harm of sharing the evolvement of the original creation with the world as the original author did?
I hope im not being rude i just dont want people hating on me if i take a mod and change something and then give it back.
20 different people changing 1 mod is 20 different mods but 20 different people having to do 70% of the exact same thing repeatedly with the template already before them offered for free is much less people willing to share thier creativity and ideas.
Isnt the internet about the exchange of ideas?
Lying about who did the 70% is just plain detestable but adding your own brand of goodness to life with somebodys assistance,is that so wrong?

Sincerely
Ravage777

P.S.-i made my post asking about how to mod a mod before i seen this one so i hope everybody doesnt like get my address and come over here with guns or something.
I really am not trying to be malicious or devious.I just want to make stuff that i would like and if i like it then share it because maybe somebody else will to.
I just dont see the harm in taking somebodys invention of the wheel and car and then changing the body a little and giving it away as a different car when they are also giving it away.
Im only trying to share without having to spend years learning and doing the exact same 70% of the stuff they have done just to add a different 30% when they are offering it for free as well out of the goodness of thier heart.

[stfas]

well you got to get their permission, as they worked on the mod, so they kind of got a copyright.

[IBBoard]

As stfas said, you get permission. Money wasn't expended in the mod (other than getting the game in the first place) but time is still a form of currency that companies purchase from you in exchange for your wages. People make mods in their spare time, and some mods can take a huge amount of spare time, which is a lot of investment from someone.

Some people are more protective than others over their work. I'm very open to the idea of open source, but with regards Dawn of War content then I like people to ask me first as there is no license I can really use.

As an example, Hangar-8 is usually open to letting people make their own changes to his textures (once they've asked permission) as the base work is Relic's. His banners are generally a different matter, though, since he made them himself from scratch.

Yes, re-using someone else's work makes sense from a "why reinvent the wheel?" point of view, but if the person has their own way of doing things then they might not want to release it. Also, if you said "Ford have invented the motor car, why reinvent the car?" then we'd never have all the cars we have now

As for modifying what Relic have made, they've effectively given us an unofficial open license to edit what we want. They haven't given us an official open license as they don't want to actively support it and the corporate legal team will probably insist they have a way to close down mods if needs be, but they have released tools and information that help the modders.

[Ravage777]

I so totally agree that thier work is thier property.
Im going to fix it(if possible) for my own use and then after im done ill go to the guy and give him a copy and ask him if i can share it with people for free like he did.
If he says no then ill offer to buy the right to freely share it.
If he still says no then ill go from there and see what i can do to convince him/her respectively.
I still dont even know if its a guy or girl.
You know what you said about how relic is treating the modding aspect coupled with the increasing difficulty bar to do it so totally confirms the trend ive watched the internet take for the last 15 years.
I grew up in las vegas,nevada and i knew original westwood higher ups and and almost had a job playtesting for them but i had to move because my mom was ill.
A friend that had a comp would get custom maps for c&c expansions to test in his home and i would go over and help him playtest.
Maps with nod having dinosaurs and such.
Well C&C was the first to make map editors and the industry hated them for it.
Every since map editors have been put out but because the people want them but have become more successively difficult to use with each generation.
Modding is no different and the reason is glaringly clear.They are moving to where they want to sell you maps and mods through downloads.If it wasnt for westwood theres no doubt in my mind whether we would be there allready.
DOW2 will no doubt be nice but i bet it will be 10x harder to mod for.If you notice they have yet to produce a map editor(that i know of)for this series.
With goverments wanting to tax the internet and companies wanting the revenue from downloads, modding is becoming a dying art.
This in my suspicion will be one of the last great games possible to extensively mod for with large amounts of fun and interest.
As for them not giving the official rights to mod,its a two fold thing.First they are keeping control for the continued push towards no user created material.Second they are keeping the rights for sale of this stuff to themselves therefore guaranteing they are the only ones that can profit from the game aspects.
Just look at consoles,do they make map editors and let people upload and share them or do they just make a few maps occasionally themselves and charge you money to get them.
As every 5 yrs go by there are less and less map editors and more and more charging for maps that they make.
Westwood may have gave us this great age of sharing but ea owns them now and as ea gobbles up everybody in the smaller companies you have to understand its a bunch of big wig mormon bankers an such that are there for your money,not your enjoyment and happiness.
Every game ea takes ownership of the quality goes down and the need for pay to play rises.Whether its subscription fees or downloadable content they dont want you giving for free to everybody what they can charge 2 million people 4$ each for.

Sincerely
Ravage777

[stfas]

actually you shoulden't buy your way to it, its only a waste of money, he/she will probably give you permission (most people do)

[Ravage777]

What if i get permission but they wont do it for me if i pay them,will you take a couple benjamins to do it?

Ravage777

[stfas]

well you should try do to something yourself, you learn more that way (instead of being lazy and letting others do it) sorry if i sound harsh with what i just said

[IBBoard]

As for them not giving the official rights to mod,its a two fold thing.First they are keeping control for the continued push towards no user created material.Second they are keeping the rights for sale of this stuff to themselves therefore guaranteing they are the only ones that can profit from the game aspects.

I think it's more of a legal issue than a "we will sell it" issue. If it was a sales issue then they wouldn't even release the tools and they would close down mods. Relic have apparently always been quite high on the modding support, and the introduction of Buggo as a Relic/THQ rep improved the support as it gave the community a named contact.

Just look at consoles,do they make map editors and let people upload and share them or do they just make a few maps occasionally themselves and charge you money to get them.

Which is why PCs will always be better than consoles Console gamers tend to want a quick fix, where as PC gamers are more likely to be in it for the long run. It's probably the same reason why MMORPGs like Warcraft have taken off on the PC.

As for making maps for DoW, there has been a "Mission Editor" since before patch 1.1, I think. It takes a while after the expansion is released for the new editor to come out, but there should be one for SS at some point soon if there isn't already. I think the only reason that modding has become a bit more difficult in terms of complexity is because the games have become more complex.

The first Warhammer computer game I played had (IIRC) something akin to INI files for stats and sprites for the units in battle. Replacing those needed a simple paint package and a text editor. Modern games are much more complex, requiring 3D modelling etc, and so the tools are always going to be that bit more difficult for the casual modder to get used to.

Maybe some companies are more likely to release downloadable content, but the one game I know I/my wife has paid for content for (Oblivion) is also the one game that I know of that has a huge community of modders (other than DoW), some of whom go crazy (such as completely updating the textures for Elder Scrolls 3 so they're more detailed and modern!).

[stfas]

well there isn't a map editor for SS yet (unless you install your mod tools to soul storm folder, i don't know of this works)

[IBBoard]

I think it's about the only part of the tools that is missing, though, and we have been told that it will be released at some point fairly soon. I think the map editor is just a bit more complex than the rest of the tools and so requires a bit more packaging to be part of anything other than their dev environment.

[Ravage777]

Your point is taken but i still think the limited support is more advertising than anything else but i honestly didnt know about a map either.

Im not lazy because i dont want to spend many hour and days doing what someone else could do in 15 minutes.
I really do want to find someone who will do this,does anybody know of someone who doesnt have an aversion to money?
Sounds to me like an easy couple 20's to modify the folders and make a readme to send with em and e-mail it to me.If it is only 15 minutes of work for each game.
If its more time though ill pay 80$ instead of 40$.
Maybe somebody knows of a location i can advertise to get this done maybe?

Thankyou
Ravage777

[IBBoard]

I'd actually consider it better advertising for a game if it was more modifiable. I've probably spent 100hrs or so playing DoW, but it must be multiple times more than that that I've spent tinkering and modifying it! My wife sometimes complains that there isn't much point in buying me games because I don't really play them, just take them apart

Lets try and keep this topic on the "people stole stuff and didn't credit it" track, though.