Undercoating

[Briggsy]

Hi All,

What undercoat color is best for high elves? I've gone black.

Whats the general view about color primers? Is only chaos black and skull white the best 2?

Thanks

Briggsy

[snowblizz]

I used to use white, but then I went black and never looked back...

GW only sells black and white primer (as in the spray cans). Any other sprays are highly temporary and not necessary primers as such. Though white in one sense is good because the other colours come out brighter, which works for elfs I generally recommend black anyway.
Warhammer is nitty-gritty and I prefer building up from dark to light rather than having then to work "backwards" to make stuff darker and then make them brighter.

I wouldn't call any version "best", it really is a question of how you paint and what you prefer.

[Briggsy]

So if I stick with Black, I should be OK, for any army?

What about stripping primer off? I've painter my skaven in a color primer (leather brown) from the army painter store. I would like to take this off and paint again black, any tips on this one?

Thanks

[snowblizz]

Black should work for pretty much anything.
I forgot to say, but if you are dipping then a lighter white might work better. I know some who have been running with a white undercoat and just washed/inked the model with a coloured ink. Eg Deamons work very well this way.

Stripping paint is a rather lengthy subject. I've noticed however that paint primers stick to plastic models pretty darned hard. Same primer (GW) comes off metal models easy, but won't come off plastic models. Which of course for me isn't an issue as such. Models with varnish is even more difficult as the paint has formed a crust and can't be brushed off as easily.

The biggest problem is that stripping is very local. That is products vary locally and by name.
One important thing though is that plastics are more sensitive than metals. Avoid acetone (nail polish removal)!
Some products often mentioned are
Simple Green
Dettol Antiseptic
brake fluid (the stuff that ensures your car can stop)

Here's some threads:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showt ... p?tid=3650
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=80646

[Briggsy]

Thanks Snowblizz, that's a great help....

One thing, whats dipping? And can you still use washes/inks if you use black undercoat?

Thanks again.

[IBBoard]

Personally, I'd use a white undercoat for High Elves and most "light" models (e.g. Wood Elf glade guard) but black for most other models (my Orks, or things like monsters in Elven armies). If you use white then you can paint the armour etc black (if that's what you want), but if you use black then you've got to do a lot more work and paint a lot more thin layers to get the cloth white again.

I've never used anything other than Chaos Black or Skull White undercoat, but I thought that the other sprays (the smaller cans of generally Space Marine colours) were undercoats as well. You could probably use a spray gun with normal paint as well, but as Snowblizz said then it probably won't stick as well and would be better as a basecoat over an undercoat.

Whichever colour you choose as an undercoat then you can use inks and washes - what would be different that would stop you? Depending on what you're doing then you'll basically just get different effects from the different colours. Black gives you much deeper colours and can be used for much deeper shadows, while white gives brighter colours more easily. If you use black and leave some showing in the crevasses then a wash may not show up as much as if it was a white undercoat and fully painted, but even so then you could use a black undercoat and fully paint the surface and the wash would show everywhere. Hopefully that makes sense.

As for stripping models, we've got a topic around somewhere ... *searches* ... here. We're up to four pages of suggestions, mainly of different products that are available in different nations.

[Briggsy]

Thanks for your reply, I've read many articles about undercoating and the general consensus is 50% 50% regarding black and white undercoat, I guess its down to personal preference....

So what is the basic order of events when painting a model?

Thanks

[snowblizz]

Dipping is what the armypainter stuff is made for actually. The basic idea is that you put on basic areas of colour on the model and then "dip" the whole model in a shading medium, such as the armupainter dips. This gives a sort of even coverage of shading on the whole model. It is roughly equivalent to washing the entire model in a wash or ink. The armypainter company describes it very well. It is a pretty nice technique to get large amounts of models done, though they will not be painted to as high an standard as traditional technique allow. Also, using the same shade on the whole model means you need to sort of keep an eye on what colours are used.

Painting also owes a lot to personal preference. But basecoating->blocking in colours, shading, highlighting, detailing is the classical way.
One suggestion I often see is working "inside -> out". Start with the areas most recessed and then work outwards. That way you avoid trying to poke colour into the recessed parts like a face and not to hit eg the helmet on the way in. It could also be important to remember that a light colour generally covers badly over dark so getting elf-skin on green robes is easy to fix, getting green robeson elf-skin is rather more difficult to correct.

[Briggsy]

Thanks Snowblizz for the reply...

Can you please tell me if I'm on the right track below, as I've never painted before:

- Undercoat with either Chaos Black or Skull White
- Paint detail on eyes etc....
- Base coat armor with foundation paints....build layers if needed
- Uses washes to bring up shading....
- Paint base and use grass etc....

Thanks in advanced.

Briggsy.

[IBBoard]

Fine detail like eyes is a bit tricky. If you're just starting out then I'd focus on having clean and crisp edges to your painting, then move on to detail.

My order (using the old plastic High Elves as an example, since I've painted them and you mentioned elves) would generally be:

• Undercoat in chosen colour
• Paint face with flesh and a wash, and paint feet in black
• Paint armour and weapons in silver (I used Mithril Silver, but a shade darker might be good) then give it a was with 50:50 black/armour and blue wash (there used to be a black wash and an armour wash, but I think they only have black now)
• Paint robes in a light grey, then highlight in white
• Paint the spear shaft in red etc
• Paint pouches/gloves/etc in a mid-brown and give a wash of brown wash
• Pain bases (carefully) and flock

[Briggsy]

When you use washes do you need to be careful and only wash the area intended?

Also do you need to use a wash close to the color already on the model?

Whats the difference between citadel foundations & citadel colors?

Also what is highlighting and how do you do it?

Thanks, you guys have been a great help.

[snowblizz]

When you use washes do you need to be careful and only wash the area intended?

Depends on the effect you are after but generally yes. That's one difference between washing and dipping. The wash will leave a pigmentation on any surface covered so jsut like normal paitn don't put i where you don't want it. The idea with a wash is that it is "runnier" than regular paint and as such will flow into the recesses. E.g. the splint mail and chainmail of elfs are a prime place were a wash comes into it's own. Metals should always have black underneath, I can't tell you why but they look much better that way. Anyway, over a black layer paint armour with a metal paint. Then when you wash it the wash will flow into the recessed areas and shade it leaving the raised areas with much less pigmentation though it will leave some.

Also do you need to use a wash close to the color already on the model?

As the wash is normally used to shade the specific colour, yes. There are some washes that are fairly "general purpose" GW's "Devlan Mud" get's high praise, and as sort of brown wahs can actually be used over pretty much everything. A black wash should not be used over the whole model and is better on metallics, though "coloured" metals should be washed in brown hues.

Whats the difference between citadel foundations & citadel colors?

The "Foundation" colours as the name suggests should be used as the base layers. They have extremely high pigmentation as as such cover very well, even over a black undercoat. As such the foundation red and yellow hues can be painted over black which the regular citadel colours would find impossible to cover. This makes the foundation colours more muted. The citadel colours are more "vibrant" and fit well as accents ie highlights over a base layer of foundation paint.

Also what is highlighting and how do you do it?

TBQH I think you would benefit greatly from GW's "How to paint Citadel Miniatures" book. It explains a lot of this which you really need to see to understand. There is just so much to painting to explain.
But high-lighting means to replicate the lighter tones of raised areas where more light would hit the model. A scale model is normally too small for light to do this naturally. If you have say a red cloak then the further toward the centre of the model the darker it would be, "the shade". Conversely the more towards the edges of the model the cloak would be lighter in colour, the "high-light".

[IBBoard]

Just to add to what Snowblizz said:

Washing uses an "ink" (pigment suspended in a watery substance, rather than pigment in the much thicker paint form) and gives a slight tint to raised areas, but mainly collects in recesses to shade them. The other example of where they're most useful is hair and fur - paint it a mid-brown, give it a coat with brown wash and you get good instant shading for your rank and file.

While I don't see the point of the Foundation paints most of the time (I may only be 26, but I'm an "old timer" who remembers Warhammer 4th and 40K 2nd edition!), some of the old yellows were a bit thin. GW claimed it was something to do with the old manufacturing process and that the paints couldn't be improved (hence the move from the old hexagonal pots from Coat d'Arms to the newer dumpy screw-top and then dumpy flip-top pots) and colours like Bad Moon Yellow really did have to go over a clean white base, but I never had a problem with rest of the range. It'll probably depend on style and preference - some people will swear by the new foundation paints, while some people will just see them as GW making another quick buck (after all, Rackham can make a wonderfully thick black paint that is cheaper than the Citadel one for a larger pot, and it waters down for normal use very nicely).

Washes do generally work best when done in a colour similar to the base (brown or chestnut wash over browns, black over blacks and greys, blue over blues, etc) but sometimes you can achieve other effects by using them differently. Browns over metal make it look rusted and mistreated (undead, Orks etc), blues over metal give it an almost ethereal feel (high elves), a thin green over Wood Elf armour can tie together the "natural" feel (if done right), and shades of purple and other colours can be used on skin to get all sorts of alien effects (purple around the eyes of a vampire was a good one I saw, but an advanced technique to get just right so that he isn't wearing eye shadow!)

With regard metal and why it works best over black, I think it is all about light. A black undercoat below metal gives the shiny silver particles a good base to contrast against (since the silver paint is a mix of grey and silver), where as a white undercoat is too light and doesn't let the shine stand out. TBH, I think I might have done some of my later High Elves in silver over white and used a thinned mix of armour and blue wash and got an effect that I was quite happy with. It wouldn't work as well for most other armies, but I think my elves worked quite well without black for the metal.

I agree with Snowblizz's recommendation - get hold of the How to Paint Citadel Miniatures book and give it a read (Wayland Games have it at nearly 20% off, and we get a referral fee as well). Also, if you can get into a local Games Workshop store then the staff will be able to give you some pointers. I think GW are putting more and more bits up on their website as well these days in terms of hobby articles.

[Briggsy]

Thanks guys, that's brilliant advice, I will go get a copy of the book.

Thanks.

[Briggsy]

There are 2 "how to paint citadel miniatures" on Wayland games, both at different prices, £14.35 & £12.00, are they 2 different or one is an older version?

Basically I'm looking for the latest version so it includes techniques on washing and other various things.

Thanks