The Emperor, C'tan And The Eldar.

[IBBoard]

TGSC: the story line goes that when Inquisitor Jaq Draco gets an audience with the Emperor, several voices talk to him, saying that a part of him might have known about this potential plot against humanity, but that on the whole he was unaware of it. His mind has split into lots of different sections, each of which works on a different task (soul binding, maintaining the Astronomican, watching the Warp and working through the Tarot cards, several parts giving different audiences etc). So its not so much different personalities as different sections of the same personality, all working on different tasks and communicating as if they were separate minds!

Ravenor: Just because he hasn't turned them into Necrons doesn't mean he isn't a C'Tan. Surely by definition of their names, the Deceiver is the one who deceived the race into it, and with the semi-god-like image they have, each one would (in theory at least) be a different aspect who did different things (much like Roman gods were responsible for different things). That doesn't mean I think he is a C'Tan, but it doesn't rule it out just because humanity hasn't been turned into a race of metal skeletons

[Loki]

Quote from Gamesworkshop:"The Necrons are a mysterious race of skeletal warriors that have lain dormant in their stasis-tombs for millions of years. They are ancient beyond reckoning, pre-dating even the Eldar. Yet, they are beginning to awaken, for the galaxy is ripe for harvest.

The Necrons' story is one of an ancient betrayal. Aeons ago, the Necrontyr race clung to their short lives in fear of oblivion at the hands of their massive and ravaging star. They pushed the limits of science in an effort to lengthen their lives, but to no avail. Then, the star gods known as the C'tan were discovered, offering immortality at a terrible price.

The Necrontyr agreed, and their souls were encased in living metal bodies. What they did not know was that the process dulled their minds and senses so they became slaves of the C'tan. The C'tan needed warrior-slaves to harvest the lifeforms of the galaxy so the star gods can feast on souls, and the C'tan's new Necrons served this purpose well.

After life across the galaxy ran thin millions of years ago, the Necrons went into stasis, waiting for life to grow back. Now, in the 41st millennium, they have found a galaxy teeming with life again. "

First of all,Psykers are NOT wizards. How the heck are advanced mental abilities and magic one and the same?! The psychic energy is simply used to power the life support systems of the Golden Throne. If you look in any 40K timeline,you'd know that he was born on earth. Can't really remember when. Around 9000 BC or around the 1900's believe it or not.

Heres another quote: " The Assassins that form the Culexus Temple are chosen because they have, or appear to have, no presence in the Warp, there is just a void. They are, to all intents and purposes, soulless. – p. 30, Codex: Witch Hunters

The Culexus were psychic nulls, carriers of the Pariah gene, a trait that debilitated psykers in proximity to them. – p. 8, Codex: Necrons

Crafted from a terrible symbiosis of Necron technology and human evolution, Pariahs represent the next phase of the C'tan's ideal for the galaxy. – p. 17, Codex: Necrons


Based on the tantalizing hints in the background material above, we can only guess that the humans the Necrons used as the basis for their Pariahs were Culexus Assassins. These unique humans carried the "Pariah gene," and have the Soulless and Psychic Abomination special rules just like their Necron descendants. Could it be that the Necrons planted the Pariah gene in humanity eons ago with this use in mind? "

By looking at all of this jazz,I don't really know..

[IBBoard]

So still nothing definitive as to whether the C'Tan could be part of the Eldar gods then. Hopefully GW Legal won't get upset about the big quote as well, if they read this!

As for the Psykers and Wizards, they're very similar in many ways. What is the difference between a blast of concentrated warp energy that was focused by a psyker and a blast of the Winds of Magic concentrated by a Wizard? In the end they're both just using their talents to focus the available energies to achieve things that a normal human couldn't do without technology.

I'm not sure where Culexus Assassins fit into it all though. Are Pariah's descended from the early Culexus? or is it like us and monkeys - we're both decendants of a common ancestor, even though one is supposedly 'more evolved'? (unless of course you listen to George Bush and his crazy ideas for the American education system when it comes to Evolution Theory!)

[solidzaku]

As for the Psykers and Wizards, they're very similar in many ways. What is the difference between a blast of concentrated warp energy that was focused by a psyker and a blast of the Winds of Magic concentrated by a Wizard? In the end they're both just using their talents to focus the available energies to achieve things that a normal human couldn't do without technology.

Ah, but there is a difference. Magic comes from some sort of outside force that's manipulated by humans kind of like "The Force". (May George Lucas forgive me). However, psychics or Psykers as W40k spells it, use an innate natural ability inside their own brains. Mages, Wizards and the like need incantations and spells and staffs and whatnot to activate their powers, Psychics dont need them.

Also, the W40k canon disproves your argument as well. If the Emperor needs about 100 psykers a month to use as "batteries" then that means that the power is held in the psyker, not some outside "magic force". If the latter were true, then why don't they just build a kind of powerplant for this "magic stuff" and leave the Emperor well enough alone? It's not personal, Board, just business

[IBBoard]

But magic doesn't necessarily need staffs and incantations - some mythologies rely on them more than others, and some mythologies have them as something that just helps for more complex spells. Also, I'm sure that some Psykers use incantations to help some of their spells. Lightning bolts etc might be easy enough to just point and think angry thoughts, but some of the more protective spells could be incantations.

Don't forget the Warp, though. Psykers channel power from the warp. It isn't used as much in 3rd/4th Edition, but I'm almost certain that it was explicitly mentioned in 2nd edition. Now, in 3rd/4th you don't get gribblies from the Warp eating your psyker in the game, but there is still the possession side where the psyker is a weakness into the warp. Following that line, the psykers can still be used as 'batteries' in as much as they are an easy way to tap into the power, instead of doing it directly - it even comes with the bonus of getting rid of potential rogue psykers. Think of it this way, which would be better - filling a drink from one 5 inch hole, or filling it from 100 half inch holes? One person, even the Emperor, would only be able to directly drain so much energy at a time.

Also, one flaw with your 'power plant' idea is the technological dark age that the Imperium went through. Something of that caliber would be impossible for them to build at the moment. Most of the psychic weapons and items are either ancient relics or else stolen alien hardware.

[Space marine]

i think the eldar MADE the necrons!
i know thi because in 'a torturers tale' in WD241 it says that the eldar created machines to farm, fight, explore, etc for them
[Theory] the eldar made necrons to work for them fall happened necrons shut down [cut to now] so now (for a reason that i wish I knew) the necrons are awaking (down with necrons AND eldar)

(Nurgle forever)

But why would such a majestic race as the eldar make mechanised skelentons as their slaves? surely, looking at Wraithguard and Dreadnoughts, they would have been able to produce something much more, erm, aesthetically pleasing and less grim.

Good point, Nurgle Forever, but the Eldar couldn't have created the Necrons. The Eldar may be one o the most ancient races, but the necrons are much older. (about 10,million years older to be exact, meaning that, if I am right, which I probarbly am not, that Eldar are about 40,000 years older than humans) please note that I am probarbly wrong about amounts, but the Necrons are much older than the Eldar. Much older, and I know I'm right about that at least.

[IBBoard]

Yeah, I guess there is that too. I don't know the age of the Eldar or the Necrons, but I think I vaguely remember seeing that the Necrons were very ancient!

[Simguinus]

I don't think we can dismiss the Eldar creating the Necrons purely on an aesthetic basis, either. Animated skeletons? Well, Death Jesters? Dark Reapers? There's plenty out there in the Eldar aesthetic which is grim.

On the age thing, yes, I'm pretty sure the Necrons pre-date the Eldar by some time. I'm sure there's some fluff on them somewhere that specifically states this.

[IBBoard]

Even with the Death Jester and Dark Reapers, there's still a certain level of Eldar style to them, though. Granted it's not enough to rule them out completely, but it's a fairly good pointer IMO.

[Simguinus]

Depends on what the Eldar were like before the Fall. Or maybe if Necrons were built by Dark Eldar. We could argue the Eldar artistry point back and forth, but, unfortunately its pretty germane, since I think we all agree that Necrons weren't built by the Eldar.

The final irony would be if the Necrons were, in fact, long lost STC devices from the Dark Age; come back to haunt their creators. That would be a nice twist: the Imperium spends no end of time looking for STC stuff, and now it finds some that it just doesn't want.... Unlikely, but an amusing idea....

[IBBoard]

Yeah, that would be interestingly ironic

[Space marine]

Yes!

Hey, I've just remembered, well, been reminded, by my pal Charlie, that the Necrons found the C'tan, as they were about to be destroyed.
( the Necrons that is ) The c'tan agreed to protect them and help them fight, in exchange for their souls. The Necrons unwillingly agreed, and the C'tan turned their bodies into living metal, and armed them with the gauss flayers, which were joined onto them, so they could never be taken. Once the Necrons were safe, they lay dormant for a long time, now, in the 41st millennium, they are said to be awoken by a galaxy full of prey, that they can harvest in the name of the C'tan, but the real reason is..... The Eldar disturbed them!
So, the Eldar didn't make them, they disturbed them.

[IBBoard]

Four hours apart - that's close enough for an edit

As for the story line - I've not read much on the Necrons, but that was the vague understanding that I had of them. Souls stolen by C'Tan, put in metal bodies and then disturbed by the Eldar (and, on some planets, the Imperials)

[andygorn]

Unless you want to go back to the dawn of history (or whenever) and say that Terra is really an Eldar-seeded world that they just forgot about, or that the one race / the Eldar's gods / whoever made everything, or some such, then The Emperor is a pure Human...he's pure psychic energy and is THE ultimate psychic resonator and amplifier and he's got nothing to do with the C'tan at all.
(And when the Cult of the Star Child really gets going (hopefully sometime soon) all aliens, Tyranids and Chaos Gods will bow before His magnificence!).
I'd heard that the Machine God is the "Dragon" C'tan and the Adeptus have basically got him imprisoned on Mars by keeping him in torpor.
However, as a loyal servant of The Imperium, I must now go and kill myself for even thinking such heresy...
Now, where'd I put that bolt pistol? (LOL).

[IBBoard]

I think the Dragon C'Tan is one that GW have hinted at more recently. Considering the Adeptus Mechanicus worship the Machine God instead of the Emperor, then they're kind of heretical anyway. Making their god (knowingly or unknowingly) an alien entity would be a bit of a plot twist, although they'd have to either find some way to destroy an all-powerful being or else drive it off. Either way it might not be too plausable.

Also, a bit more spacing between paragraphs would be nice for readability