Fantasy Representation

[saphire krakens]

In the game of warhammer fantasy, the races could represent real life people
But some are more inconspicuous than others, can someone fill in the blanks
][Beastmen = Wild animals
][Bretonnia = French
]2[Deamons = Evil
]2[Dark Elves =
][Dwarfs = Mining towns
]2[High Elves = Altantians
][Lizardmen = Aztecs
][Ogre Kingdoms = Barbarians
]2[Orcs and goblins =
][Skaven = Plagues
][The Empire = British Empire
]2[Tomb Kings = Undead mummys
]2[Vampire Counts = Dracula myths
]2[Chaos = Lure of evil
]2[Wood elves = Forest Myths

[IBBoard]

I think a lot of it is inspiration and themes rather than full "representations".

The mappings I see are:

Beastmen - Mutants/animals/the thing in dark woods (lots of myths about that kind of thing)
Bretonnians - Stereotypical medieval knights, with a French twist
Daemons - Embodiment of evil, but there isn't exactly anything "real" that they can be like
Dark Elves - Not sure
Dwarves - Classic fantasy race with Norse inspiration
High Elves - Atlantis (look at the location of Ulthuan and how they've got such a great centre of magical learning)
Lizardmen - Aztec/Incan
Ogre Kingdoms - Barbarians with a hint of Mongols in some images
Orcs and Goblins - Not sure
Skaven - The corrupt underbelly of society and the urban myth that you're never more than X feet from a rat
The Empire - Tudor times with a *very* strong Germanic twist
Tomb Kings - Classic "Egyptian mummy" undead
Vampire Counts - Classic "Dracula" undead
Chaos - The general lure of evil, but we've never had anything quite the same
Wood Elves - General mythology of woodland sprites etc

[snowblizz]

In the game of warhammer fantasy, the races could represent real life people

Actually no they can't.

The races are not supposed to represent anything. They borrow imagery from where they are placed, alternatively are placed where their imagery would be representative to us.

Forget the whole Bretts are French and Empire are German idea.

I think a lot of it is inspiration and themes rather than full "representations".

Exactly. It shouldn't be seen as a 1 to 1 mapping, but taking interesting imagery from various periods and locations and reusing them in a semi-familiar setting.

Beastmen - Mutants/animals/the thing in dark woods (lots of myths about that kind of thing)

Beastmen used to be the Germanic tribes of the Dark Woods beyond civilization that the Romans feared. For the last book at least, this latest one is more "woods are pretty darn evil in WHFB".

Bretonnians - Stereotypical medieval knights, with a French twist

Not quite. They are "Arthurian Legend Knights" as finally romanticized by French high-medieval society. In a darker WHFB version obviously. They are as much English as they are French really. Not much of a difference at that time, neither country had quite been invented.

Daemons - Embodiment of evil, but there isn't exactly anything "real" that they can be like

Unless you believe in deamons... They are the archetypal "devil", well, archetype.

Dark Elves - Not sure

This is usually where it breaks down. Canadians not being much like Dark Elfs I've found.
Dark Elfs are more defined by their relation to High Elfs, in many ways the 3 elf armies embody the classic D&D alignment, chaotic evil, true neutral & chaotic good.
They also are a reflection of the darker side of the psyche. The stuff you could do if you considered yourself better than everyone else and had the ability to get away with it.

Dwarves - Classic fantasy race with Norse inspiration

Indeed, they combine the "jolly good Viking" image and a positive naive technological progress idea. Chaos Marauders are the "bad Vikings". And Chaos Dwarfs have the unchecked rampant industrious desolation theme.

High Elves - Atlantis (look at the location of Ulthuan and how they've got such a great centre of magical learning)

Yes, Atlantis but also ancient Greek in inspiration. Spear Phalanxes anyone?
They also have that ancient wisdoms/teachers of the young races thing.

Lizardmen - Aztec/Incan

Yup, heavily mezzo-american pre-Columbian culture.

Ogre Kingdoms - Barbarians with a hint of Mongols in some images

Well, "Eastern" or something. They have Mongols meets the Stone Age as ravenous huge monsters theme. If you've read the book you see that they live essentially in a pre-historic time. Woolly mammoths, rhinoceroses, etc etc. It's all there.

Orcs and Goblins - Not sure

According to Gav once upon a time, they are the Scots and Gaelic tribes.

Skaven - The corrupt underbelly of society and the urban myth that you're never more than X feet from a rat

Yeah. The Decay of Civilization essentially.

The Empire - Tudor times with a *very* strong Germanic twist

Nononononono. The Holy Roman Empire (of a German Nation). Almost to the letter.

Tomb Kings - Classic "Egyptian mummy" undead

Actually more like Bredan Fraiser-The Mummy but less silly. Look at it. They almost slavishly copied stuff from the first movie. Ushabti, Tomb Swarms, Tomb Guard.

Vampire Counts - Classic "Dracula" undead

Yup, all bad western Vampire stereotypes, excepting swooning teenage girls.

Chaos - The general lure of evil, but we've never had anything quite the same

That's another of those "oh we're evil". In all fairness GW stole it hook, line and sinker from Moorcock.

Wood Elves - General mythology of woodland sprites etc

Yup, with The Wrath of Nature Unleashed, as a strong idea.

[IBBoard]

Beastmen - Mutants/animals/the thing in dark woods (lots of myths about that kind of thing)

Beastmen used to be the Germanic tribes of the Dark Woods beyond civilization that the Romans feared. For the last book at least, this latest one is more "woods are pretty darn evil in WHFB".

I hadn't thought about Germanic tribes. The placement works well (given the similarities of geography between the worlds).

Bretonnians - Stereotypical medieval knights, with a French twist

Not quite. They are "Arthurian Legend Knights" as finally romanticized by French high-medieval society. In a darker WHFB version obviously. They are as much English as they are French really. Not much of a difference at that time, neither country had quite been invented.

Okay, I'll give you Arthurian Legend, but only because that's what I was thinking of with "stereotypical". I won't let you have "not French", though Okay, so they've got a Robin Hood-esque character, but he is Bertrand the Brigand with Gui le Gros, Hugo le Petit and the Bowmen of Berganac. Bretonnia is also a very strong play on the French Breton region, and its place in the Olde World map mirrors that of France. Basically, every single character and place has a French-sounding name, and Britain has its match in Albion.

Dark Elves - Not sure

...They also are a reflection of the darker side of the psyche. The stuff you could do if you considered yourself better than everyone else and had the ability to get away with it.

That was the closest I could come up with - Dark Elves (like Dark Eldar in 40K) are the excess of humanity (or Elves in this case), and all the twisted, corrupt and uninhibited indulgence in taboo acts.

And Chaos Dwarfs have the unchecked rampant industrious desolation theme.

Given the background of when they were created, their "dirty industrialism" and general position on the map (to the east of the 'civilised' world that looks and is named very similarly to Europe) then I'd read something about them being based on the old Soviet Block. Obviously not in any appearance sense, just in a general "big, bad, dirty, industrial power" way.

High Elves - Atlantis (look at the location of Ulthuan and how they've got such a great centre of magical learning)

Yes, Atlantis but also ancient Greek in inspiration. Spear Phalanxes anyone?
They also have that ancient wisdoms/teachers of the young races thing.

True, and I guess the architecture to some degree. I hadn't thought about the Greeks.

Ogre Kingdoms - Barbarians with a hint of Mongols in some images

Well, "Eastern" or something. They have Mongols meets the Stone Age as ravenous huge monsters theme. If you've read the book you see that they live essentially in a pre-historic time. Woolly mammoths, rhinoceroses, etc etc. It's all there.

Good point, I'd probably go Mongol Cave Men, now that you mention it

Orcs and Goblins - Not sure

According to Gav once upon a time, they are the Scots and Gaelic tribes.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that. Savage Orcs in particular have a Gaelic tribal hint at times (albeit mixed with the Amazon-type tribes). I guess it's an English view of 13th century Scots (think Braveheart and the like).

The Empire - Tudor times with a *very* strong Germanic twist

Nononononono. The Holy Roman Empire (of a German Nation). Almost to the letter.

I was going to say "huh? what?", until I looked it up and realised that "Holy Roman Empire" isn't the Romans - it's that big European Empire from later on instead I was just going off the uniforms (which seem quite 16th/17th century to me), the gun powder and the half-timber buildings, with the Germanic coming in through the language, location and iconography.

[snowblizz]

I hadn't thought about Germanic tribes. The placement works well (given the similarities of geography between the worlds).

6th ed designer notes Gav says that they were inspired by the Teutogen forest "incident", which is why we have the Ambush rule. They are the danger in the great forests beyond civilization.
I think the historical parallels are there yes. The Beastmen where "before" humans and the Germanic tribes where there before the Holy Roman Empire.

Of course the new Beastmen book they talked about Bestmen "being the things that go 'bump' in the night", "the scary things under your bed" and a whole load BS like that. I preferred Gav's version.

Okay, I'll give you Arthurian Legend, but only because that's what I was thinking of with "stereotypical". I won't let you have "not French", though Okay, so they've got a Robin Hood-esque character, but he is Bertrand the Brigand with Gui le Gros, Hugo le Petit and the Bowmen of Berganac. Bretonnia is also a very strong play on the French Breton region, and its place in the Olde World map mirrors that of France. Basically, every single character and place has a French-sounding name, and Britain has its match in Albion.

Well it is all "faux" French. Keep in mind that the period this covers the King of England is the largest landholder in France, most of his principal knights have French names and I bet they spoke French over Ye Olde English. Also Britain, is named after the Bretons... And Albion is actually Ireland not England. Check the maps... In Dark Shadows there are lots of named places, I was surprised to find that they were not fictional and most of them actually exists in modern day Ireland... Although again I'd much rather use the term the "Gaelic world". I think it is not particularly useful to get too caught up in the similarities because Bretonnians aren't medieval French in a fantasy world by any stretch of the imagination.

And Chaos Dwarfs have the unchecked rampant industrious desolation theme.

Given the background of when they were created, their "dirty industrialism" and general position on the map (to the east of the 'civilised' world that looks and is named very similarly to Europe) then I'd read something about them being based on the old Soviet Block. Obviously not in any appearance sense, just in a general "big, bad, dirty, industrial power" way.

Well their position places them further east than that. After all Kislev is an approximation of the slavic world/eastern europe, the World's Edge mountains sort of representing the Ural mountains.
The dark industry of the Chaos Dwarfs mostly makes sense as the dark mirror of Dwarfs. Notice that there's no pollution or anything for Dwarfs even though they have steam engines and stuff. I saw a picture from around Baku in the late 1800s, looked exactly like I'd imagined a Chaos Dwarf landscape.

True, and I guess the architecture to some degree. I hadn't thought about the Greeks.

Well Atlantis is the creation of the Greek philosophers, Platon was it? Atlantis itself is an image created in the mold of how ancient greece saw utopia. Or at least that one dude. But as you say, eg architecture, and the style in general, owes much to the "Ancient Greek" image. Or at lest the picture we have of it. I recently learned that the Greeks painted their marble statues. White marble statues is something we have created afterwards as an image of what we thought the ancient Greek were about.
Just in the same way that we consider ourselves "descending" from ancient Greece at least in mind, in the Old World most major cities are founded on originally Elven colonies and elfs in much brought civilization to humans.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that. Savage Orcs in particular have a Gaelic tribal hint at times (albeit mixed with the Amazon-type tribes). I guess it's an English view of 13th century Scots (think Braveheart and the like).

Frankly I'm not sure besides talismanic tattoos of what there is of their "barbarian" origin. In that way they are one of the more successful armies in establishing an identity of their own.

I was going to say "huh? what?", until I looked it up and realised that "Holy Roman Empire" isn't the Romans - it's that big European Empire from later on instead I was just going off the uniforms (which seem quite 16th/17th century to me), the gun powder and the half-timber buildings, with the Germanic coming in through the language, location and iconography.

15th/16th century. Look through some books on the early Landsknecht armies e.g. I was reading up on the Italian Wars of late 1400s early 1500s and it is like seeing a carbon copy Empire force (Holy Roman Empire) fighting fairly recognizable Bretonnians (French). If we forget about he Steam Tank and clockwork horse almost every unit has its historical counterpart. War Wagon included (popular in the Hussite rebellion in the 1400s). Though the French had Swiss pikemen and cannon. Empire soldiers are wearing exactly what Landsknechts would, in fact there's an 28mm Artizan range which are indistinguishable from 5th ed GW Empire figs. The latest incarnation has made efforts to "WHFB"-up it heavily though.
And yes it was actually called the Holy Roman Empire of a German Nation, to distinguish it from the Roman Empire that actually contained Rome...
I must admit I've forgotten which Emperor managed to get the Pope to crown him Roman Emperor.
But I guess to you that would seem "Tudor". Most of us have never heard about that though.

[saphire krakens]

one thing that i wanted to know is if the Spanish conquistadors fit into it because my friend who i play with constantly has the lizard men so i was wondering if i could get a battle between the Incas/Aztecs and the spanish

[IBBoard]

Estalia is the geographical and language-inspired take on Spain, but they've never had much detail on it. The Lizardmen book details some Conquistador-like conquests, but I've never read about them in detail. The closest that GW ever came to an actual unit was Pirazzon's Lost Legion from the Dogs of War army in 6th Edition, IIRC.

[snowblizz]

Estalia is the geographical and language-inspired take on Spain, but they've never had much detail on it. The Lizardmen book details some Conquistador-like conquests, but I've never read about them in detail. The closest that GW ever came to an actual unit was Pirazzon's Lost Legion from the Dogs of War army in 6th Edition, IIRC.

Yes, that's pretty much it. Estalia is "Spain" sort of. It has all those "just around going to America wibes", though Estalia is a bleak copy of what Spain was at the time.

Pirazzo is his name-o. Although strictly speaking he is not Estalian but a Tilean. Comes from Tobaro the only Tilean city on the coast of Estalia.
We know little else of Estalia, the Arabyan Sultan Jaffar invaded Estalia which prompted the "crusades" of Brettonnia and Imperial Knights, led to the foundation of many knightly orders, eg Blazing Suns and Panther. Also led to the Border Princes being formed by those who were too late to join the party.
Estalia is briefly depicted in Abnetts "Fell Cargo" IIRC, I think they are in an Estalian port briefly, but the story implies a sort of Caribbean archipelago, it really is a pirate novel crowbarred into WHFB.

The "Conquistadors" of WHFB are Tilean though. Love those figs though, quite rare now (excepting GW's gouging prices). Few bought them way back when on account of their stupid rules.