Freebooterz, Bad Moons and what is 40K canon

[David256]

Most mercenaries/ freebooters are bad moons right? Like this zagstruck fellow and his flashgitz or am I wrong?

Anyway, that model looks really neat. Good job on that.

I like evil sunz more though ^^


[[Edited by IBBoard to add a link to the topic this was from after we strayed in to canon/lore so that "that model" makes sense!]]

[NBKFuzzy]

Lore wise, Bad Moons are the largest Clan that actually engages in space combat (as in ships) and proactively travels through multiple star systems. This is because they actually posses multiple looted battle barges, GW never said what chapter they managed to loot a battle barge from.

I would assume (as do most) it was looted from the Blood Ravens, due to their significant presence in the Auerlia sector which is their recruiting worlds. In Dawn of War 2 you fight a lot of Bad Moonz, as well as kill their main warboss (which is no big deal, obviously just gets replaced instantly by the second biggest one)

Its stated through the story in DoW2 that the Bad Moonz are unorganized, so probably are a lot of freebooters and pirates. The Blood Ravens use Bad Moonz as targets in training missions sometimes. They are only a threat in DoW2 because the Eldar are using their stupidity by telling them they are stronger orks and getting them to rally together, making a Waaagh! strong enough to be very powerful against the Blood Ravens

[David256]

Makes sense. If one ork clan travels space it'd be them. Just look at ghazkul thrakka; he got his tellyporta devices from a bad moon warboss. So I think it's a fair guess bad moons travel space etc. (since obviously it seems they get the best stuff)

Then again, you're talking about dow2. Did gw accept this as valid info? (even though they gave the rights to make this game in the first place)

[IBBoard]

Did you mean neat cool or neat tidy?

I've always thought of Freebooterz as unaligned Orks who don't really have a klan to call their own (either because they're not organised in that way, or because they're just Orks who left their old klan and allegiances behind). Evil Sunz are quite interesting, but I never felt like having that many vehicles. Orks is bout da boyz an 'itting stuff dat iz in yur wayz wiv ur choppa!

I don't think anything in the computer games is official until GW say it is. After all, DoW isn't a perfect match to 40K (e.g. unit sizes), which is explained away as just being different interpretations of the same universe.

[NBKFuzzy]

Did you mean neat cool or neat tidy?

I've always thought of Freebooterz as unaligned Orks who don't really have a klan to call their own (either because they're not organised in that way, or because they're just Orks who left their old klan and allegiances behind). Evil Sunz are quite interesting, but I never felt like having that many vehicles. Orks is bout da boyz an 'itting stuff dat iz in yur wayz wiv ur choppa!

I don't think anything in the computer games is official until GW say it is. After all, DoW isn't a perfect match to 40K (e.g. unit sizes), which is explained away as just being different interpretations of the same universe.

No, all Dawn of War books and games are canon. There is nothing like "unit sizes" in lore. The rules for the table top game have almost nothing to do with the official story. And if you have read many novels where marines are the main guys, they use squads like in DoW2, only going into a fight with about 30 soldiers. The table top is the original, however if you read the codex of SM, which I am sure you have, they define them as elite angels of death. They express this in the novels by showing off their strength.

And so you know, anything featuring the Games Workshop logo doesn't mean it's canon. What makes it canon is the Warhammer: 40k logo. Which you will see on all novels, and all DoW games.

Not to mention the events of Kronus and the Kauruva campaigns are mentioned multiple times in different books. Even the fact that Davian Thule on Kronus fought the Imperial Guard, its still official lore. Also keep in mind if you notice, there are no dates listed in the Dawn of War series, aside from winter assault, which we know is a prequel due to the necrons getting up. This allows GW to place them in the timeline which has been done in the novel, Dawn of War: Angels of Death which is practically Dawn of War 2 and a little after.

Think of it like Star Wars. There is so many games and books, each one is official story that its more than the movies. The TT and Codex's are actually, as stated by GW, meant to show off the "major historical" battles. This is most likely since in most other instances they dont use many soldiers, unless its Orks or nids. In many Eldar books it mentions only about 300 soldiers for an entire campaign, aside from Dark Patrol which is only 5 rangers.

tl;dr? It is official. It bears the w40k official logo. All books are official as well, written by GW writers. As far as I know, the only non canon game is Fire Warrior, maybe some old PC title might be non canon as well. Just for sourcing all of this, I have read all of the lore in white dwarf for years, all of the lore in the codex's, almost every novel - even the ones about Orks (me no like Orks). I wouldnt call myself and expert, but I almost know the 40k galaxy in and out.

And dont think I am some DoW2 favoritist because I like the game, I do wish it had bigger units like the original dow.

[snowblizz]

It is official. It bears the w40k official logo. All books are official as well, written by GW writers.

Actually no. Not all books are canon by a long shot. Plenty of books are written with only a cursory nod towards "what is canon" (in of itself a contradictory term when it come to GW as "canon" is whatever they say it is right this minute). E.g. a lot of the old books that have re-published in recent years are like this. One of the them even comes with a special foreword to place the books in the "modern" 40k-universe, basically presenting the books as heretical ravings by a rogue Inquisitor.

Even the armybooks are contradictory at points, the 6th ed HE armybook detailed a DE invasion into Ulthuan whereas the 7th ed HE armybook totally retcons everything back to how it was in 5th edition.

In many ways a lot of the current armybooks are veering away from established principles. Take the Deamons of Chaos that are all suddenly BFFs. Beastmen are hardly mentioned as being of Chaos.

[IBBoard]

We're getting a bit off-topic here I'll try to break it out in to a new topic...

The great Inquisition Wars novels featuring Jaq Draco and written by Ian Watson are the best example of books being official but not canon. IMO they're some of the best books, but they don't fit with most of the rest of the lore. Anything from 1st Edition that features Slaan, Zoats and the like is probably also not considered canon any more, either that or they dismiss it as some distant corner of the universe that isn't relevant any more.

All the logo means is that it is an approved novel that GW has had published and is willing to take the license fee from. Fire Warrior had the logo on as well and they were happy to promote the game when it first came out, but they've since ignored it because it was a bit of a ropey game.

As for there not being unit sizes in lore, I guess I'm imagining the standard Chapter organisation of companies of 100 men (plus support) with the standard company being made of 6 Tactical, 2 Assault and 2 Devestator squads

Also, I don't think that the DoW novels are indicators of much other than GWs desire to cash in on the DoW franchise (with, from what I've heard, a terrible first novel from an author who shouldn't be allowed to write!)

[snowblizz]

Another fun recent thing is the Liber Chaotica where again thy hint at some connection between WHFB and 40k despite this being a founding principle for all modern versions. At least 3rd ed and forwards, possibly as early as 2nd ed.

[NBKFuzzy]

I see the point but many things fit together in the same universe. Some things don't, and some things can be ignored or re-written. It really can't be told as canon until somebody who is high up directly says so, I just like to assume they are. Dawn of War especially, the stories of the game is my main reason for playing.

As for WFB and 40k, I always wish to think they were connected. Many things don't link together, but that being said, with the Empire as it is... it wouldn't be hard to erase and rewrite all historical records. Maybe eventually we can find out for sure, the Eldar are the only ones who would know. If you are a fan of WHFB you know it wouldn't be hard for Humans to eventually wipe out all other races, especially after they beat chaos in the Age of Reckoning.

I have seen multiple people (mostly authors) actually link a time line of 40k, it was in White Dwarf a while back if you remember it. I Remember it was very controversial, but I would like a solid time line of major events. There is no solid story of 40k, only many isolated incidents. If there was anything to be called a main story, I would have to go with Dawn of War, and following the Blood Ravens. You can't deny due to its popularity that the Space Marines, mainly Blood Ravens, are looked at now as the "good guys" in 40k.

[IBBoard]

They certainly were connected in the time of 40K 1st Edition - the original Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned books covered both 40K and Warhammer, and the WH (or 40K) lore was that the WH world was some backward world off in the corner of the 40K universe. 40K 2nd edition dropped that, as far as I saw, and the closest I ever saw in WH from 4th Edition onwards was the potential for the Slaan's masters and their gates to be some 40K technology, but very little was ever said about them.

In terms of some "high-up" saying what is and isn't canon, I doubt that's ever going to happen. They'll say what rules are official but not what background, because specifically marking some background as canon constrains what they can do in future.

As for the timeline, we've got the Encyclopedia of Games Workshop on the HWT site, which never got as much work as I'd hoped because of other projects. Turning that in to a timeline as well was always one of my crazier ideas, but you'd really have to scour the books for dates. Add the increasing difference from "actual time" caused by warp travel and the inaccuracies of the Astronomican at larger distances and you might have to get a bit vague in places

I think the Space Marines have always been the "good guys" overall, as they're the defenders of the Imperium. They do have a bit of a "stomping jack boots" take on that protection sometimes, but as the creations of the Emperor and defenders of mankind then the human armies are always going to see them as good guys.

[snowblizz]

FWIW, it comes to me now that GW has ONCE (that I know of) said "this is canon". Not even the 40k background has that. Oddly enough it is the Horus Heresy series of books. They actually came out and said, "this is how it was, seriously, this isn't legends this is facts, this one time we are going to tell you what really happened".

I actually follow a "multiverse theory". That I've "invented". Basically WHFB isn't a planet somewhere in a warpstorm in 40k. WHFB is a separate universe, as is 40k. However they are both connected by their link to (through) the warp.
It is a fairly elegant solution that solves a lot of the mashing together problems.

[NBKFuzzy]

I think it would be a great conclusion to WFB to have the planet be purged by Blood Ravens.

I'm just sayin'.

[snowblizz]

I think it would be a great conclusion to WFB to have the planet be purged by Blood Ravens.

I'm just sayin'.

I sense another person who should see the Blood Raven Pile we have as a terrain piece down at the club.

For those not familiar with the story at some point one of the guys got hold of, literally, a pile of Space Marines glued together, all painted a dark red. It just laid around for some time. Then someone had the bright idea to paint the shoulder pads (at least those reachable with a brush) bone-white just to tick of the local Blood Raven player. I also think it was insinuated that the Ravens were "happy"... by using an old 3 letter word that has a rather different meaning nowadays.

[IBBoard]

There seems to be a bit of an insurgence of Blood Ravens because of the games. They do have quite a nice colour scheme (a nice crimson and bone) and a crisp and different style for their icons, but it is like Ultrasmurfs all over again! Just because they're popular doesn't mean that they need to be doing everything

As for the Blood Raven Pile - sounds like a cool bit of terrain One way of using up Space Marine models if you don't want them, but I'd have thought you could have sold them quite easily as well!

[NBKFuzzy]

Blood Ravens would have to be my favorite chapter, but I'm not a marine player. Just wish they actually had a background.